Artist-Led DEI Workshops | Intermission Conversations Episode 1
Artful DEI Workshops Reaching the Core of What Moves Us: A conversation with Bayeté Ross Smith
Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs have become commonplace in today’s workplaces, as organizations seek to promote a more diverse and inclusive culture. However, despite the good intentions behind these programs, they often fail to create lasting change and can even cause harm to employees. This is because many traditional DEI programs take a one-size-fits-all approach, failing to consider the unique experiences and challenges faced by different groups of people. Additionally, they often rely on surface-level training and awareness-raising, rather than delving deeper into systemic issues and promoting meaningful dialogue.
That’s why it’s crucial to explore alternative approaches to DEI training, such as the one presented in this week’s episode of Intermission Conversations. Artist Bayeté Ross Smith has developed a unique approach to DEI training through the use of multimedia and storytelling, creating nuanced conversations about identity and its impact on our lived experiences. By utilizing different art forms, such as photography, video, and performance, Bayeté’s approach allows for a more engaging and participatory experience, encouraging participants to reflect on their own identities and biases.
Through this episode’s transcript, you’ll gain insight into Bayeté’s approach and learn how it can be used to promote emotional intelligence, psychological safety, and social justice in the workplace. You’ll also gain a deeper understanding of the limitations of traditional DEI programs and the need for more innovative and inclusive approaches. So don’t miss out on this fascinating conversation.
Jade Thacker:
Hello everyone. Thanks so much for checking out our podcast. You are tuned in to Intermission Conversations, a podcast series hosted by the founders of Intermission: myself, Jade Thacker, and my co-founder Gaby Ron. If you're listening to this right now, chances are you're probably one of the innumerable professionals searching for innovative and creative ways to implement DEI strategies that are genuinely effective, engaging, interesting, and dynamic. The failure of traditional DEI training is a wake-up call and artists are up for the challenge.
At Intermission, we work with a diverse range of artists in the realm of socially engaged art, meaning art that employs realtime creative participation and conversations as catalysts for learning and making and expanding our awareness and understanding around DEI workshops. The artists we work with are each award-winning creatives and academics in their own right and cover critical topics ranging from how to identify and grow awareness of our own implicit biases and how those in turn affect social systems of all kinds, to personal resiliency and burnout in the workplace, to gender perception and dynamics of power, to gun violence, biodiversity and ecological justice and so on. DEI in the past has never traditionally taken advantage of artists and socially engaged art in particular as a very effective method of engagement, so we're really excited to be now fostering such tremendous value for artists where they previously had no real access to these market opportunities within the DEI world.
Today we are very excited to introduce our listeners to Bayeté Ross Smith, the artist and founder behind the very first workshop series to join Intermission titled Our Kind of People. The Our Kind of People workshop series is just one of the many socially engaged projects that Bayeté continues to produce. And within the context of the DEI training that we've done together, we've seen Our Kind of People serve as this really interesting, impactful resource to companies of many different fields and sizes in really helping teams expand their literacy and interest around DEI and, most importantly, gain tools towards better understanding their own preconceived notions around identity and how that tends to come up in daily life as unconscious biased behavior. Welcome Bayeté, and thank you so much for joining us.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Thank you for having me.
Jade Thacker:
Coming from my and Gaby's background working with artists in different creative contexts, it's been really interesting to learn so much about the DEI world and in recent years to see, how much growing criticism there is around this field and research around how it's traditionally ineffective and how a lot of the DEI workshops of yesteryear aren't really getting to the heart of the matter and creating real culture shift. It's been a really obvious trajectory to bring artists into this work. Our Kind of People in particular has a very nuanced and thoughtful way of inviting people to participate that is not aggressive, that allows folks to project their own experiences onto images and stories of other people that they've never met before, never seen before. We've seen a lot of really interesting conversations emerge from that. I would love to hear from you about Our Kind of People, how the project began, what it is, and a little bit about your approach to inviting people to talk about the images that they're seeing and share about themselves.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
The inception of the Our Kind of People series goes back to my experience at a historically black college and going through this process of dressing up in a suit, changing the way I walked and talked, and going to these weekly meetings we would have at FAMU with Fortune 500 corporate executives. One day I became very aware of how me and all my peers were code switching in a way that would defy a lot of the expectations of young black Americans. That sat with me for years. Then, after graduate school, I was working on a photo project that I thought was going to be a documentary about young black Americans who work in corporate America. The images were decent, they weren't extraordinary. A lot of times photographing people in corporate environments is just not that interesting. So I had these really interesting images of people in their personal lives but all the corporate ones were really boring. I realized that what really got to the heart of the matter in terms of these images was looking at a face and what you associate with a certain face when that particular person is wearing different types of outfits that span from formal to informal and span social class and education signifiers. So that's where the core of Our Kind Of People came from. The series itself is a series of portraits in a sequence of six of the same person wearing clothing they all own. These are real people, they're not models, and the clothing ranges from formal to very informal. I photograph everyone on the same white background with the same lighting and blank facial expression, devoid of emotion. When you look at each sequence of six people, each individual viewer will project their own narratives onto each version of each individual subject. They will also notice how the narrative that comes into their mind shifts between one subject to the next subject. The idea is to create a scenario where people reflect on what came into their mind, what they were thinking, and ask themselves “why did I think that?”
Jade Thacker:
Something that's been so interesting in these DEI workshops as we've seen team members interact with these pictures is where they see themselves in the images and where they really don't identify with them. Other things come up as well, such as signifiers around fear, safety, class and education. I heard you mention how you encourage participants to consider “why did I think that?” That's a really critical question that should be rolling through our heads at all times. You ask another really wonderful question of your participants, which is, “how do I know what I know?” I hear you say that regularly in these workshops. And I think that is really where folks start to tell their story about where they come from, what their background is, and really start to unpack where these notions arise from. I think if we can just walk through the world asking ourselves these two questions every day– “why did I think that? How do I know what I know?” – it stops you in your tracks. I do it all the time now because of these workshops. I'm constantly checking myself, noticing these things.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
It's interesting to think about the subjectivity in what we know. And that's not necessarily the idea that what we think might be false or an opinion. It's more the idea that we each have a different way of seeing the world and therefore we each have a different way of framing the world. I could know something that's true, but that doesn't mean that there's another truth that's just as valid. That's a lot of what I hope people will think about with the question, “how do I know what I know?” For example, if you go into any room anywhere in the world and you ask people to describe it, they'll describe the room slightly differently just because of what stands out to them. And it's not like one person is telling the truth and another person's lying. It's just that certain things come to the forefront of our minds that we would emphasize differently in other people because we are different people. I think really pushing people to consider that is very critical in terms of people being open to where they might have blind spots and being open to accepting new information. The new information doesn't necessarily invalidate your old information, but it is an “and”. For example, geometry is math. So is calculus. One doesn't invalidate the other, they're just different aspects of mathematics. The Our Kind Of People series also explores the idea of identity as a set of criteria, but also as a performance. We perform identity in different circumstances. So there's a lot to consider and navigate as we engage with how we examine identity. I think it's the basic building block of human interactions because the way that I identify or the way that I perceive myself is going to affect how I interact with you. As well, the way that I perceive you is going to affect how I interact with you and vice versa. That happens on an interpersonal level, but also on a macro level from one community to another community.
Jade Thacker:
I think this way of thinking invites people into the concept that we are still always learning and always growing and there's something very vulnerable in that, but it's extremely important and it doesn't have to be groundbreaking or defying of roles that are important to you to stick to or of of a certain history that's important for you to embody, but to continue to be willing to grow and evolve and to change.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
It seems simple, but asking yourself “why did I think that? how do I know what I know?”, at least from a North American standpoint, feels very groundbreaking, ironically, in terms of a sense of awareness. It shouldn't be, but, for some reason, it is, given how we are conditioned to certainly approach things in our culture.
Jade Thacker:
Definitely. That's why this DEI training is especially beneficial when exercised multiple times or in conjunction with other workshops of yours in the sense that it's about expanding literacy, basically getting practice. Any muscle needs to be worked and worked in order to exercise itself without getting tired. It's about putting it into practice and living this new way of thinking and walking through the world.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Even though the images are studio photography, I think they actually apply very well to a daily lived experience in terms of self-reflection. And that's where the work that you're doing with Intermission is so critically important in that art and media are some of our best ways of examining stories, examining our understanding of the world around us, examining how we communicate, and then applying it to a daily lived experience. There's a lot of things you can know intellectually, like someone told you that or enough people told you that something is factual so you know it, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything or resonate within your daily life and how it's lived until you have an experience that grounds it in daily life. Aart and media are great vehicles for making that connection. With a lot of DEI work, we're essentially trying to undo centuries, if not thousands of years of inaccurate conditioning, but that's not gonna happen in one session. It has to be ongoing and done in a way that, again, relates to a daily lived experience so people can feel how the ideas can be applied to what they go through on a daily basis. And you can't tell someone how to do that because you likely don't know their life well enough to tell them. They have to have that own discovery within themselves. So that's why I talk about my work as an artist in general as being work that's not telling people what to think, but creating scenarios where people are forced to question their preexisting beliefs, and then ask themselves “why did I think that?” That's where the discovery takes place.
Jade Thacker:
One of the biggest struggles that artists, especially socially engaged artists, experience when sharing their work with the world is finding an audience that is genuinely seeking its impact or has the desire to be present in that context. Many times socially engaged projects exist in happenstance ways and audience members interact with them on the fly or in conjunction with other art experiences that don't necessarily elicit participation in that way. It can be difficult to cite oneself there and absorb that impact in a sustainable way. The art world is a capitalist market driven lexicon that really doesn't have the means, or interest really, in supporting and sustaining socially engaged art as a critical field because there's not enough capital in behavior. In learning more about the field of DEI work and understanding where the gaps are in creating genuine experiences for people, has been very validating when considering how necessary socially engaged art, and workshops like yours and your practice, are. It's been a really natural fit to introduce you to these folks, and quite refreshing to most.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
In a lot of these environments, a lot of the people in corporate settings and fields that are not art and media related and aren't directly advocacy and social justice related, are a lot more receptive to certain conversations and engaging in certain topics and posing certain questions than artists and other folks would think that they are. It's just that they don't necessarily have access to the artwork, to the conversations, to the ideas. And quite often the exposure comes in an aggressive way, in a way that might be overly academic and in a way that is not engaging. What I hope to do with my work is make it engaging and accessible. That's part of why multi-platform storytelling is important to me, and being able to scale projects up and down because accessibility is a major aspect of this work. For quite a few years, art wasn't necessarily that accessible to the general public, at least a broad range of different types of art practices. There's a few people who were in the cannon of what would be in the major museums and a few people who did work that fit into what would be put in public places. But for most of human history, the arts weren't necessarily that accessible, and they weren't accessible in a way that engaged people more on their terms. There's a large history of elitism there. When we remove that, we can use art as a profound teaching tool that affects people in a variety of ways and helps them think and understand elements of the world that they can apply to their daily lived experience as individuals and in groups.
Jade Thacker:
You're also a teacher, teaching at NYU Tisch School of the Arts, and have a lot of other really interesting intersections in your art practice and roles that you get to play, including being the very first artist-in-residence at Columbia Law School. I would love to hear more about that and what it's been like, especially bringing the Our Kind Of People series to this community and its impact that you've witnessed in a legal context.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Being the inaugural artist-in-residence at Columbia Law School was very exciting, and a very great experience. It's actually part of a larger initiative that I've been developing for a few years where I intend to bring my work and the work of some like-minded colleagues into law schools, law firms, district attorney's offices, and other spaces that are occupied by the legal community. The reason I'm interested in doing that is because people with legal education and people who go into careers related to law often end up being people in policy making professions or in professions that operate our legal system or professions that implement policy or they're going directly into political leadership positions. My thinking with what I'm calling “The Art of Justice Institute” is that if we can affect them during their formal education and in an ongoing way, almost like continuing legal education in their professional lives, then we get to cultivate more thoughtful, aware policy makers, policy practitioners, legal practitioners who will go about doing their jobs in a more thoughtful, in a more equitable, in a more inclusive, in a more justified way than if they didn't have this exposure.
Jade Thacker:
I have a big smile on my face. You've shared a story with me in the past about showing the Our Kind Of People series of images to a group of legal professionals to give them the opportunity to reveal some unconscious biases. And I always find this particular story quite interesting and crazy.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
This was really striking. A fellow by the name of Michael Roosevelt, who lives in Oakland, was a really big supporter of my work early on. He discovered my work at a small gallery show in the Bay Area when I wasn't that far out of grad school and he really liked my work. He works with the California Judicial Council and they organize a lot of different events and different programs in order to enhance the quality of work and the quality of experiences that professionals have working in the legal system. So he invited me to present my work at a conference. We were focusing on language access in the courts and they'd already done a variety of different things about verbal and written language.. Michael was a bit ahead of his time because he tapped me and he was like, “we need someone to talk about visual language. It’s critically important if not more ubiquitous to some extent than verbal and written language.” So he had me present the Our Kind Of People series at the conference and we got into some really great conversations about the work, people's preconceptions, and where they thought they stemmed from. We talked about different cultural frameworks based on where you come from; not only things like ethnicity and gender, but how those intersect with social class and the literal geography of where you come from to form your perceptions of other people. The way in which we project these narratives onto other people is really, really fascinating.
In the Our Kind Of People series, there are images of a lot of different people of various genders, sexes, ethnicities, races, social classes, and so on. One of the sequences in the series is of me when I was much younger; I'm a black American; and another one of the series was of my friend Keith; he's a white Australian guy. Interestingly enough, Keith actually went to a historically black college. I always joke with him about that, that's why he's so cool. During the conference, the conversation eventually got to, “of these two subjects, who do we have the most positive response to, and who do we have the most negative response to within each sequence?” So, of all the six six images of me, which ones did they have the most positive response to? Which one did they have the most negative response to? And then we did the same thing with Keith and a few other people.
I'm summarizing and generalizing what a couple of hundred people said in one session, but I think it's still relevant. What ended up happening was with the images of me, and they essentially felt they had the most positive response to me when I was in a suit and the least positive response to me when I was wearing a hoodie. (But when the hoodie was up and on. There was another image in that sequence where the hoodie was off.) With my friend Keith, they had the most positive response to him in this kind of hip outfit with a knit cap on and a Marvin Gaye t-shirt and a zip up sweater, and they had the least positive response to him in the suit. So I was like, “Okay, wait a minute. Why are so many of you having a positive response to me in a suit and the least positive response to Keith in the suit? That's like completely the opposite of what I would've expected.” So after a bit of conversation they basically were like, “Well, I think part of it has to do with our position as court workers working in courts in California. When we see a white guy in a suit who looks too clean cut and too much like the ideal image, we start to get suspicious because it makes us think about a slick lawyer who's trying to get someone off of a crime that they committed, or we think of a corporate criminal, or of someone in a corporate environment in the industry who's just a “suit”.
To me, as a Black American, it was fascinating. It also made me chuckle, even though these issues are serious. Itt made me think about getting ready to go somewhere and being like, “Okay, how should I dress for this environment? How will they perceive me as a black man? Can I wear this hoodie even though it's cold outside even though it might be inclement weather? Where am I going? How might that affect how the police would deal with me?” So on and so forth. And whenever I'm doing that, is there some white guy somewhere putting on a suit like, “wait, should I put the tie on? Should I go tie off? I don't want them to think I'm a suit.”
Jade Thacker:
Think the answer is yes.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
That had never occurred to me before and I was like, well what do you know.
Jade Thacker:
These are the really interesting things that emerge out of this workshop and these really strange unsuspecting biases that hundreds of people might identify with as evidenced in that story. So it's really fascinating.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Yeah. And this was in Southern California where the conference was. So it was a very diverse group of people in terms of ethnicity, race, and gender, and I would suspect social class as well. But you know, that's kind of a hard thing to assess at a conference.
Jade Thacker:
Are there any other stories of note like that from your experience in sharing this work in different populations?
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Oh yeah, I had a really interesting experience showing work from this series in China years ago. I was fortunate to show my work at the Lianzhou Photo Museum at the Lianzhou Photo Festival in the Guangdong province of China. As I mentioned, there's people of all different backgrounds in the OurKind Of People series and what I showed in China were a range of different people. But one of the people I showed were these images I made of my friend Gene, who is Chinese American. And from what we know of Gene's family history, we’re pretty positive that Gene's DNA is 98- 100% Chinese. He’s a Chinese American because he grew up here, but biologically DNA-wise, he is Chinese.
I'm showing it at this photo festival in China and I'm talking to some of the Chinese people who are at the show. Now granted I'm talking to the people who speak good English, but these were Chinese people in China. They're definitely Chinese and we're having an interesting conversation and they're enjoying the work. I offhand mentioned that Gene was Chinese as I talked about the different ethnicities of people in the series and questioning how different ethnicities get perceived differently. And they were like, “Oh he's Chinese? He doesn't look Chinese to us.” And I was like, what? I know Gene is Chinese and I know that he looks Chinese and then I'm in China and they're like, nah, he doesn't look Chinese. So I was like, what is going on here? And it took a lot of conversation to get to the core of that. But what it was was that this particular group of Chinese people who I was talking to when they saw the images of Gene noticed his fashion sense. Because again, in the Our Kind Of People series, the clothing is everyone's own clothing and it's worn in a style in which they would wear it on a daily basis. So they noticed his fashion sense and they associated his fashion sense more with a Japanese guy, maybe a really hip Korean guy. It's not what they associate with someone Chinese. So when they looked at the images they were like, oh, he's not Chinese, he's East Asian from another part of the region. Just an initial knee-jerk reaction. And that was so fascinating to me. Because again,I know Gene looks Chinese, but they weren't looking at facial features and physical features the way that we are conditioned to do in the United States. They were seeing his clothing and they were like, oh that's not how a Chinese person would rock those outfits. That's not how a Chinese person would dress. So their mind just went someplace completely different. And I was like, wow, that is a completely different way of thinking about things that I would've never thought of. That would've never occurred to me. It was just really fascinating. And again it goes back to “how do you know what you know?” How did I know that Gene looked Chinese? Because I was framing looking Chinese in a very American way of assessing ethnicity and race, but perhaps there's other ways that one can look.
Jade Thacker:
That's what's so critical about the kind of participation that's possible in these workshops is that folks do come out with their knee jerk reactions and these very objective responses to images of people that they don't know and what gets projected onto them. That's really interesting and often leads to really dynamic conversations. It kind of reminds me of some of the conversations that we've had with companies that have approached Intermission expressing a general desire to shift culture in the organization to one in which their team members feel like they can bring their whole selves to work. That's a lot to ask of anyone and arguably impossible in a lot of ways. It's really interesting to think about that in correspondence with the Our Kind Of People series in the sense that we do costume ourselves whether we think it or not, we make decisions based on how we want the world to see us and or not see us. In the context of these conversations with various organizations, we've heard folks talk about a desire to create a level of comfort amongst their team members such that they can express dissenting opinions or bring more of their personality into conversations or discussions at work. And obviously this kind of desire for a shift in culture has to happen over a really long period of time.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
You can't fix all of this overnight.
Jade Thacker:
Absolutely. And again, I think this is why the type of work you're doing and this type of storytelling is really important because it allows people to enter a conversation that isn't necessarily about them at first, but it is, based on their reactions and responses to things. I'm curious to hear from you about some of your observations during workshops and the way you may have noticed participants emerging with more brave willingness to be themselves or share.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Yes. We do costume ourselves and we do play these different roles in life. So to some extent you don't know your coworker in a certain capacity, but to feel like on site you don't know them, strikes a deeper chord about just being self-reflective and what we think about why our perceptions are our perceptions. You were also asking me about some things that have occurred in different conversations that have occurred in the workshops. What I like about this work is the conversations can shift significantly depending on your environment. I talked previously about showing these in China, showing these with the California Judicial Council. I'm pretty sure people in California would not have said Gene didn't look Chinese because, again, there's a way of seeing that is North American, Californian. Sure, maybe if someone was a very recent immigrant, maybe they might have said that. But it's just a different way of seeing. I don't think that necessarily everyone or the majority of people even in China would've thought that Gene didn't look Chinese. But the fact that there was a group of people who had that initial reaction was striking to me because that said, to me, that this is a thing that can happen.
Jade Thacker:
Another thing that I've noticed being a witness and a facilitator in some of your workshops is the way, for example, groups of Human Resources professionals may possess similar biases based on the way interviewees present themselves. We've seen some really interesting conversations, reactions, and behaviors shared about that that can only lead to some sort of shift in how we continue to go about conducting business in that regard. That's really important.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
We're all going to make assessments that often could be classified as assumptions when we see and interact with other people, the question becomes what's reasonable versus unreasonable. If I go to play basketball and I don't have basketball sneakers on, people are going to look at me sideways. That's reasonable to be like, okay, what's up with this dude? Especially if you're around a bunch of real hoopers. I think most of us expect the president to wear a suit when they do the State of the Union address, right? If the president showed up in some casual clothes, we'd be like, what's up with this guy? This is important, take it seriously. So, you know, there's that range. A good point to take away as well is that it is complicated. It is nuanced. That's why these types of workshops are important. That's why inclusive and multi representational art and media are important because it's going to take a variety of different tactics to recondition ourselves out of some very flawed ways of thinking and looking at one another.
Jade Thacker:
Definitely. Well, in the last few years since 2020 much of our professional life and DEI experiences across the spectrum take place virtually now. Your practice is contingent upon participation and active participation. I'm curious to hear from you how you feel the virtual nature of these workshops has been challenging or beneficial to the way folks can interact with them.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
I think virtual interactions are a really great resource and they're definitely something that we want to use productively. Obviously we have to think about and be strategic about how to actually use them most efficiently. What is it that we gain from virtual experiences and what do we lose from not being in person, and can we emphasize what we gain and attempt to minimize what we would lose, right? I’ve found them very effective within the workshops within setting up breakout rooms. What we'll do in the workshops is we have certain activities we do all together as one big group with as many as 100, maybe 150 people. We could do a larger number of people in person, but that also has its own drawback. So, what we do in the workshops is we have a segment of time where we have breakout rooms which are super easy to get in on video chat software and separate people into different rooms of four to seven, maybe eight, at the most, people. And then people are able to have their own personal semi-private conversation amongst each other in a smaller group. It allows people to feel more empowered to speak up, more empowered to share. And then we go back into the larger group and each group selects someone to report back about what the most memorable and striking part of their conversation is. They have a list of prompts that they are supposed to use to get the discussion started. And when they report back, they can share something that they discussed based on one of the prompts or it could be a completely different parallel thing that simply came up in the course of conversation that was really striking. I think that experience of being in the breakout sessions together and then coming back and sharing the insights that they had in their small groups is really a compelling experience for the larger group. And that happens very effectively and efficiently in a virtual space.
Jade Thacker:
There's something to be said for folks that are working at home having greater access to their personal selves, and perhaps a greater willingness to be open with that. A lot of coworkers are now pretty geographically disparate from one another and unable to meet in person, which is also a great opportunity for artists like yourself to explore other technologies and ways of creating globally accessible means of participating. Have you considered this throughout this workshop? What are your thoughts on interactive media in that regard?
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Yeah, we have all of these technological tools and digital tools and if we use them for “good”, we can actually accomplish a lot globally as a species, and definitely within each of our communities. I think that none of these platforms are enough on their own. So I think it's good to try to use the virtual as a way of complimenting what is in the physical spaces. To your point, what makes these virtual workshops extraordinary tools is you can get any number of people together anywhere in the world for the most part, you know, almost at any given time. For example, if we're doing a breakout session and there's an office in Lagos, an office in Frankfurt, and an office in New York, you can create a breakout session with some people from Lagos, some people from Frankfurt, and some people from New York, and they can all be in the same breakout session in a way that would not have been likely in physical space. There's a lot of different ways to do that that can be beneficial and it provides a lot more opportunity in terms of scheduling as well as in the different visual images that you can incorporate into the workshop because if everyone has a decent computer or smartphone, there's a variety of different things you can share and have people interact with virtually. So I think it's a very good tool. I think we also have to be mindful of what types of communities, what types of environments, what types of subject matter work best in person or if it makes sense for there to be two virtual workshops, and then the third in the series is in person. Those are the types of things we have to think about. But I think virtual as a tool is really, really powerful because it opens up so many different options of things that wouldn't have been possibilities before.
Jade Thacker:
Further evidencing why artists are genuinely a wonderful candidate for helping to revolutionize the DEI world and the type of engagements that are possible. This sort of media experimentation is inherent in your set of interests and familiarity and your skillset. So it's really exciting and wonderful to see the kinds of things that are possible within your practice in these new spheres. We are so grateful to be working with you and thank you so very much for joining us today in this conversation.
Bayeté Ross Smith:
Thank you for having me. It's been a thrill working with you all as well. I think we've done some really great work together and I'm very excited for the work we can continue to do.
Jade Thacker:
Absolutely. Well, thank you Bayeté. Thank you so much to our listeners, and if you enjoyed this podcast, please check out our website, www.intermission.space to learn more about our workshops and our approach to this work. Thank you.
